{"content":{"sharePage":{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"47675966","dateCreated":"1323193091","smartDate":"Dec 6, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mrCohen","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mrCohen","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1344807827\/mrCohen-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/englishnotes.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/47675966"},"dateDigested":1532091959,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"\"The Murder of Moses\"","description":"What does this poem say about the difficulties of being a leader and a follower?","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"47847890","body":"My interpretation is that the speaker is in the point of view of a Hebrew. In this passage, the speaker details the distress experienced by the followers of Moses, and several moments that creates further dissent within the Hebrew community, expressed in the stanza, "We hated you daily"". I believe that Karl Shapiro attempts to depict the calamities that the Hebrews faced in the Bible, such as being pursued by Pharaoh, having to traverse great distances during their travel, and Moses' anger at their worship of false idols. I believe that Shapiro sympathizes with the Hebrews' anger, as seen where in the poem, "It was as if you were trying to lose us one by one.
\nOur wandering seemed the wandering of your mind..." This shows how without proper knowledge of the leader's intent, followers may experience difficulty.","dateCreated":"1323374703","smartDate":"Dec 8, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"astobi","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/astobi","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47864844","body":"This poem written by Karl Shapiro is written in the view of a Hebrew who was enslaved by Egypt and Free by Moses.In the text the hate and conspiracy of those who did not believe in God and of Moses are depicted.The feeling towards Moses are depicted harshly,as Karl Shapiro writes"We hated you daily" but these feelings were written threw those of a man who did not "see" the path that was laid for Moses and the Hebrews by God.","dateCreated":"1323390057","smartDate":"Dec 8, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"Qjdownes","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/Qjdownes","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47865076","body":"At the end of this poem The author writes "You assumed the burden of the world and for our understanding. Converse1 with God made you a thinker, Taught us all early justice, made us a race." He thanks Moses for all that he done and how he punished them for breaking the law because he led the to a holy place ,but in my mind in the end when he thanks him it is out of greed in which he thanks him only because he was given such a marvelous gift the promise land.","dateCreated":"1323390283","smartDate":"Dec 8, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"Qjdownes","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/Qjdownes","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47871832","body":"I agree with QJ and Tobi when they say how, "The Murder of Moses," is written in the point of view of the Hebrews. The poem is basically about the Hebrew people's perception and judgement of Moses during the Exodus and how that perception changes from beginning to end. As QJ said, at the beginning the Hebrews hated Moses. Karl Shapiro writes it as, "We hated you daily." But then there is a change of heart by the time Moses dies and the Hebrews have a chance to reflect. "You assumed the burden of the world and for our understanding\/Converse with God made you a thinker\/Taught us all early justice, made us a race." Now, the Hebrew people finally appreciate Moses and all the great things that he did for them.
\n
\nIn my opinion, this poem perfectly illustrates the differences between a follower and leader. In this case, Moses is the leader and the rest of the Hebrew people are followers. Karl Shapiro depicts the role of a follower to be quite simple. All they have to do is follow. They basically don't even have to think! And they are able to judge their leader critically, when in truth they don't do anything. You see this a lot in present times with people judging the government and saying this and that, when the truth is that they have no idea how they could make things better or about the amount of pressure the position of a government official brings.","dateCreated":"1323396556","smartDate":"Dec 8, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jecolmenares","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jecolmenares","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47873412","body":"I agree with the above statements that this passage is written from the point of view of a Hebrew who is following Moses to the promised. I think passage highlights the difficulty of being a leader, especially when leading a group of people who do not know you well or are not close to you. The passage states, \u201cWe hated you daily. Our children died. The water spilled.\/It was as if you were trying to lose us one by one.\/Our wandering seemed the wandering of your mind,\/The cloud believed we were tireless,\/We expressed our contempt and our boredom openly.\u201d This shows that the Hebrews did not trust Moses and did not think that he was a good leader. A man whom they barely knew took them from their homes and is leading them through the wilderness to a promise land. The conditions in the wilderness were very harsh and many people were dying, so of course the Hebrews would be unhappy lose faith in this new leader. They began to blame Moses even though he was being directed by God. They also failed to realize that everything Moses is doing is really for their good even though it might not seem like it. It was until Moses had died did they realize that this man was trying to help them this entire time. He says, \u201cThough you were mortal and once committed murder\/You assumed the burden of the world and for our understanding.\/Converse1 with God made you a thinker,\/Taught us all early justice, made us a race.\u201d This shows that they realize the huge burden Moses was given to lead the people out of Egypt to help them. Earlier the Hebrews were only thinking about their current conditions, and not about the long term goal, the promised land.
\nIt is easy for followers to criticize and be skeptical of their leaders because they do not know of the huge burden that a leader is given. A leader must make decisions that will benefit his people in the long run even if it might be negative to some people temporarily. Followers have no responsibilities and it is easy for them to think critically of their leaders. Leaders have the hardest job, and followers don\u2019t realize that because they haven\u2019t felt what it is like to be a leader. One of the biggest differences between a follower and a leader is the ability to look ahead, which is a quality that all good leaders need. A leader must be willing to make sacrifices to achieve a long term goal, which is what Moses did, even though his people were not able to realize this until he was dead.","dateCreated":"1323398290","smartDate":"Dec 8, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"asTalla","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/asTalla","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47874252","body":"I agree with Jorge. I believe that this poem is written in the point of view of the Hebrews. I also believe that the author is making a statement on the role of a leader. The leader has a way harder role than the followers, in Moses' case. In the poem, he says "At last you ascended the rock; at last returned.
\nYour anger that day was probably His.
\nWhen we saw you come down from the mountain, your skin alight
\nAnd the stones of our law flashing,
\nWe fled like animals and the dancers scattered." Here, he is talking about his making of the 10 commandments. When he saw the Hebrew people after coming down Mt. Sinai, he caught them worshipping false idols. This enrages him, and as a result of anger, he breaks the stones. He then makes the Hebrew people drink the water that has been mixed with the gold. Although Moses was harsh, this shows the struggles that he had to go through in order for the Hebrew people to listen to him. He is also saying that the Hebrew people didn't appreciate Moses until he was gone. In the poem, the author says "Though you were mortal and once committed murder
\nYou assumed the burden of the world and for our understanding.
\nConverse with God made you a thinker,
\nTaught us all early justice, made us a race." In the beginning of the poem, the Hebrew people hated Moses very much. They doubted the things he said and did, and they did not respect him. However, when he finally died, they saw how much Moses actually did. They saw that he had such a heavy burden to carry, and they did not appreciate him until the very end.","dateCreated":"1323399173","smartDate":"Dec 8, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jphillips24","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jphillips24","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47874956","body":"I disagree with QJ in saying that the only reason the Hebrew people finally appreciated Moses. In the beginning, they hated him very much. However, in the end, the author says "Though you were mortal and once committed murder
\nYou assumed the burden of the world and for our understanding.
\nConverse with God made you a thinker,
\nTaught us all early justice, made us a race." I do not think that the Hebrew people would appreciate Moses simply out of greed. When he says the first few lines, he is saying that although Moses had commit a crime in his lifetime, he had good reasoning behind it. He also held a great burden in protecting the Hebrews. In the final sentence, it is saying that through the efforts of Moses, the Hebrew people became unified.","dateCreated":"1323399873","smartDate":"Dec 8, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jphillips24","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jphillips24","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47876898","body":"I disagree with QJ and I agree more with Julian's stance. The Hebrews didn't appreciate Moses out of greed. They appreciated him, because he was no longer with him. Like the saying says, "you only really appreciate something until you lose it." And like Julian said, Moses, through his sacrifice and hard work, was able to unite the Hebrew people.
\n
\nKarl Shapiro through this poem also outlines the characteristics of a leader. Like Talla said, a good leader needs to be able to look towards the future. A good leader also has to keep some secrets from his followers in order to keep the peace.","dateCreated":"1323402146","smartDate":"Dec 8, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jecolmenares","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jecolmenares","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":0}]},{"id":"47670358","dateCreated":"1323188863","smartDate":"Dec 6, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mrCohen","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mrCohen","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1344807827\/mrCohen-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/englishnotes.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/47670358"},"dateDigested":1532091960,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Sitting by a Bush in Broad Sunlight by Robert Frost","description":"What point do you think Frost is making?","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"47778964","body":"I think the point that Frost is trying to make is that even though you might not be able to witness or prove something, all you need is faith to cement your belief in it. You can see this when he says.
\n" When I spread out my hand here today,
\nI catch no more than a ray
\nTo feel of between thumb and fingers;
\nNo lasting effect of it lingers."
\nHe can it feel the heat and fire of the sun, but he knows that it is still there. He also says,
\n"God once spoke to people by name.
\nThe sun once imparted its flame.
\nOne impulse persists as our breath;
\nThe other persists as our faith."
\nHe is saying that God came down and talked to man, and the sun set the bush aflame, even though in broad sunlight the bush doe not catch fire. The flaming bush is all they need for their faith and he says that it has only happened once, and that man should not scoff if they don't see it again. What he is saying in the last stanza is that is that the proof of God coming down and speaking to us is our breath and our life, and the proof of the burning bush is our faith.","dateCreated":"1323295968","smartDate":"Dec 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"asTalla","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/asTalla","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47781262","body":"The point that Robert Frost is stating through his poem, \u201cSitting by a Bush in Broad Sunlight,\u201d has to deal with the conflict that many face with faith or belief. Frost says in the last stanza,
\n\u201cGod once spoke to people by name\/The sun once imparted its flame\/One impulse persists as our breath\/The other persists as our faith.\u201d Here, Frost points out the problem that religion and the belief of God causes many. God has abandoned humans. In the last stanza, he says that there was a time where God often spoke to people and imparted to them His wisdom, as it says in the Old Testament. But nowadays, this is no longer the case and it is almost like God has abandoned the human race altogether. And now the only thing that human beings have is faith.
\n
\n\u201cWhen I spread out my hand here today\/I catch no more than a ray\/To feel of between thumb and fingers\/No lasting effect of it lingers.\u201d This is present time and the narrator, Robert Frost, is sitting by a bush in broad daylight, as the title suggests. The bush is obviously a reference to the burning bush in Exodus that God speaks to Moses through. However now, Robert Frost is standing by the bush and God is not speaking to him. Why did God spoke to Moses and not him? Here, Robert Frost alludes to the feeling of holy loneliness that most feel nowadays.
\n
\nIn my opinion, the point Robert Frost is making here is not that God has abandoned us, but is showing the problem that many Christians and Jews face. In truth (and I hope I don\u2019t offend anybody), God, in the Christian and Jewish sense, is a human made character that appears in the stories of the Bible (which were created by humans). Therefore, God, a character, can\u2019t abandon anybody. There were all stories. However, many take these stories literally, which causes internal conflict that Frost highlights in this poem. The biggest one being that God has abandoned us, because He hasn\u2019t reveal Himself to us like He did before.","dateCreated":"1323297974","smartDate":"Dec 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jecolmenares","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jecolmenares","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47782186","body":"I sort of agree and disagree with Talla. Robert Frost does state how we, humans, can believe in something without necessarily seeing it. But I also thing that he is also talking about the struggle many have with faith and how it causes many to feel abandoned by God. Because if God spoke to people in ancient times, why doesn't He speak to us now? Robert Frost shows this when the narrator talks about sitting by the bush and feeling "no lasting effect of it lingers."","dateCreated":"1323298649","smartDate":"Dec 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jecolmenares","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jecolmenares","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47782676","body":"In this Poem Robert Frost is explaining the conflict of those who have faith in God or belief in science. When Robert Frost says"God once declared he was true
\nAnd then took the veil and withdrew,
\nAnd remember how final a hush
\nThen descended of old on the bush." he is talking about the events in the story of Mosses in which God comes to Mosses in the image of the burning bush.When he says"God once spoke to people by name.One impulse persists as our breath;
\nThe other persists as our faith."
\nHe is saying that one all believed in God and God was able to come to the people, but now the people are separated from god half believing in religion half believing in science","dateCreated":"1323299010","smartDate":"Dec 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"Qjdownes","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/Qjdownes","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47786912","body":"I feel like there is a doubtful tone to this poem and Robert Frost is reluctant that God will reveal himself once again. I also feel like the audience in this poem is God. The last time God revealed himself or a prophet was the burning bush. The sole reason he did that was because the hebrew slaves did not have faith and like Jorge said probably felt abandoned. Once God recognized this he revealed his power through Moses. I believe Robert Frost is in someways trying to mimick what the hebrews did and show God that he is losing faith so God can truly reveal his ability and power to Frost and the rest of mankind. This is also shown in the first stanza when he says,""When I spread out my hand here today, I catch no more than a ray." I feel like this is showing how he is losing faith and quick. This also shows that he is in need of Gods help for something and is asking him to "take the veil and withdrew."","dateCreated":"1323302550","smartDate":"Dec 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"JakeTaub","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JakeTaub","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47796084","body":"QJ: Can you say more? What do you mean when you say: "that once all believed in God and God was able to come to the people, but now the people are separated from god half believing in religion half believing in science." Where do you get that from the poem? Is it related to the difference between the two impulses of the last stanza. Oh, and how do you know which is "breath" and which is "faith?"","dateCreated":"1323309898","smartDate":"Dec 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mrCohen","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mrCohen","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1344807827\/mrCohen-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47805702","body":"I agree with Jorge in the interpretation that Frost's point in this poem deals with matters of the reassurance of faith,as seen with the aforementioned stanza of the sun's rays. Furthermore, I argue the opposite of Jake's interpretation. I believe in the poem that Frost depicts a past where "God once spoke to people by name. The sun once imparted its flame." With the implied absence of God in the present, Frost then presents the theme of "our" hopefulness in God's contact once again, as inferred from the stanza where "One impulse persists as our breath;
\nThe other persists as our faith." My interpretation of this line is that "breath" and "faith" are examples of constant activity. As humans breathe constantly each day, so must the faith of God stay consistent.","dateCreated":"1323323983","smartDate":"Dec 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"astobi","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/astobi","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"47809426","body":"I believe that the author is emphasizing the role that both faith and belief. I also agree with QJ that there is a conflict between faith and science being depicted. In the first stanza, Frost says "When I spread out my hand here today,
\n I catch no more than a ray
\n To feel of between thumb and fingers;
\n No lasting effect of it lingers." Here, he is saying that although he only feels the rays of the sun beaming on him, he knows that somehthing is there. Later on in the poem, Frost says "God once spoke to people by name.
\n The sun once imparted its flame.
\n One impulse persists as our breath;
\n The other persists as our faith." Here, he is saying that God came down and spoke to man, and the bush set aflame through the sun. In the other half of that stanza, I believe that he is saying that seeing God consists of your actions, which is said as breath, and your faith. I also agree with Tobi when saying that breath and faith must be constant activity. Since one breathes all the time, one who is truly devout must have faith all of the time.","dateCreated":"1323340187","smartDate":"Dec 8, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jphillips24","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jphillips24","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":0}]},{"id":"45782274","dateCreated":"1320691796","smartDate":"Nov 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mrCohen","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mrCohen","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1344807827\/mrCohen-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/englishnotes.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/45782274"},"dateDigested":1532091960,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"The Last Rites of Bokononists","description":"Do you think the speaker is sarcastic?","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"45994026","body":"Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. is extremely sarcastic in The Last Rites of the Bokononist Faith. The purpose of his sarcasm is to address the fault in religion, especially in Christianity and Judaism (since the poem is based on God\u2019s creation of the world, which is found in the Book of Genesis). He is sarcastic by his use of short, simple sentences, expletives, and symbols. \u201cGod made mud\/God got lonesome\u201d is the first line of the poem. From the start, one can tell that Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. is being sarcastic by his use of simple vocabulary and implying that God, a supposed perfect being beyond the wickedness of the world, has basic human emotion, such as loneliness.
\n
\nThis is whole poem is an allusion to God\u2019s creation of man- with man being the mud. This is true, because in the Book of Genesis, God sees all that he created and decides to make a creature that is in His image, man. And when he says, \u201cAnd I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around\/Lucky me, lucky mud,\u201d he also shows how mud is a symbol of man. He goes further saying sarcastically, \u201cI, mud, sat up and saw what a nice job God had done\/Nice going, God\u2026I feel very unimportant compared to You\u2026Thank You for the honor!\u201d Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.\u2019s sarcasm here points out his belief in the absurdity of religion and the relationship between God and man.
\n
\nBy his language, saying phrases like \u201cNice going, God,\u201d he is also most likely an atheist and he scorns the way people believe in God. He does this through his constant use of sarcasm throughout the poem. In his opinion, Christians and Jews worship God as the narrator, mud, does so in this poem. They believe that God is omniscient and omnipresent and that everything that he does is perfect. They also believe that they are inferior to God and must always be appreciative of the things God does for us, whether it be good or bad. He shows this when he says, \u201cWhat memories for mud to have!\u2026I loved everything I saw!\u201d Here, he shows how the Christian and Jews\u2019 belief in God blinds them to the truth. This is similar to when Carl Marx once said that religion was the \u201copiate\u201d of the masses. Here in the poem, the narrator, mud, is so very grateful to God, because He allowed him, mud, to sit up. This alludes to how devout Christians and Jews see God and how they sometimes accept the rot of their lives, because they believed that a perfect being in the clouds willed it so. An example of this is in the Middle Ages when the serfs were always obedient to their unjust, cruel lords. The reasons for this is because they were taught, by the Roman Catholic Church, that God wanted them to work for cruel lords and have miserable lives. As a result, the serfs did not fight back and lived their lives as contented slaves.
\n
\nThrough sarcasm, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. shows the reader the absurdity of how people see God and their relationship with Him.","dateCreated":"1320892686","smartDate":"Nov 9, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jecolmenares","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jecolmenares","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"45996210","body":"I also believe that Vonnegut is very sarcastic in this piece, and I believe he did that to highlight the insignificance of man, compared to God, in religion. He shows Humans are just mud, and is very ungrateful, despite the fact that he was lucky enough to have the chance to sit up. This shown when he says, \u201cAnd I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.\/
\nLucky me, lucky mud.\u201d He is given this honor but does not appreciate it.
\nHe also depicts God as very ostentatious, and that he only created men to show them his other creations such as the Erath, the heaven and the stars. He congratulates him half-heartedly, and doesn\u2019t seem to really care about God\u2019s creations at all.
\nHe also believes that the ability to sit up, was not much a gift or honor in the first place. Even though God made men in his image, they are still mud that got to sit up. He is very sarcastic when he says, \u201cThe only way I can feel the least bit important is to think of all the mud\/ that didn't even get to sit up and look around.\/ I got so much, and most mud got so little.
\nThank you for the honor!\u201d He does not really care that he got to sit up, because all that happened was that he got to get up and look at God\u2019s creations, which he does not find interesting. He also shows this when he says, Now mud lies down again and goes to sleep.\/ What memories for mud to have!\/ What interesting other kinds of sitting-up mud I met!\/ I loved everything I saw!\/
\nGood night.\u201d This is like he is saying \u201cIs that it? Okay, I\u2019ll go back to sleep now, that was so cool.\u201d
\nHE is trying to highlight the small role man actually played in this, and that all they did was look at what God did, and it was not very interesting at all. He is being very sarcastic to depict man as unimportant to the creation process.","dateCreated":"1320895119","smartDate":"Nov 9, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"asTalla","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/asTalla","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46184582","body":"In Kurt Vonnegut's "The Last Rites of Bokononists," along with Jorge and Talla, I believe that Vonnegut is very sarcastic. In the beginning, it says "God made mud.
\nGod got lonesome.
\nSo God said to some of the mud, "Sit up!"
\n"See all I've made," said God, "the hills, the sea, the sky, the stars." Vonnegut is using mud as a symbol for man. I believe that in the first stanza, he is pointing out the insignificance of man, and how ridiculous the thought of it is. I believe that the title is very interesting as well. The title, "The Last Rites of Bokononists," comes from Bokononism, which is a religion that was invented by Kurt Vonnegut. It is a fictional religion, based on the idea of 'foma,' which are harmless untruths. Putting all of this together, I can infer that Vonnegut is mocking Christianity and Judaism, and his main purpose in writing this is to explain to the reader how ridiculous the concept of these religions are.","dateCreated":"1321200415","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jphillips24","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jphillips24","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46200422","body":"Along with Julian, Talla and Jorge I also agree that in "The Last Rites of Bokonoists" Kurt Vonnegut is being sarcastic. Like Jorge said one of the most obvious attributes to his sarcasm is the use of simple sentences and very basic vocabulary. Another way that the reader can see Kurt is being sarcastic is his constant remarks of how God is great and perfect.","dateCreated":"1321220258","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mting2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mting2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46200796","body":"I agree with the previous speaker's in the belief of Kurt Vonnegut portraying sarcasm in this poem. I also believe that in this poem, Vonnegut drastically simplifies the process of Creation, as seen in the book of Genesis.This simplistic view is apparent as early as the opening lines here, "God made mud.
\nGod got lonesome.
\nSo God said to some of the mud, "Sit up!" Having previously read a book authored by Kurt Vonnegut,Slaughterhouse Five, I interpret Vonnegut to be an unconventional author, as seen in this poem.","dateCreated":"1321220714","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"astobi","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/astobi","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46202972","body":"I agree with Michael. In the poem, when Vonnegut talks about how great and perfect God is, he is obviously displaying his sarcasm. A place this is shown is the third stanza. He says "I, mud, sat up and saw what a nice job God had done.
\nNice going, God.
\nNobody but you could have done it, God! I certainly couldn't have.
\nI feel very unimportant compared to You." Here, he is remarking on how absurd God's powers are, and how insignificant the humans are.","dateCreated":"1321223167","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jphillips24","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jphillips24","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46208946","body":"It is evident that the writer, Kurt Vonnegut is using a very sarcastic tone when writing this piece. It can be inferred from the text that Vonnegut is a humanist when he uses a sarcastic tone in the lines, "Nobody but you could have done it, God! I certainly couldn't have.
\nI feel very unimportant compared to You. " This is saying that humans should not be praising a being that lives in the heavens who may or may not exist. The poem is also suggesting that we should stop thanking God for all he has done, and focus on the future while we are alive and stop being so focused on the being that controls what happens when we die. I also agree with Tobi that this is a simplistic version of not only the Book of Genesis but humans perception on religion and God.","dateCreated":"1321229931","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"JakeTaub","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JakeTaub","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46211080","body":"LIke what Julian said, this does show how insignificant Humans are, when he says
\n"I, mud, sat up and saw what a nice job God had done.
\nNice going, God.
\nNobody but you could have done it, God! I certainly couldn't have.
\nI feel very unimportant compared to You."
\nThis shows that no matter if God made humans in his pwn image, he is still mud, and that doesn't change and he is powerless compared to GOd.","dateCreated":"1321232325","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"asTalla","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/asTalla","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46214982","body":"In regard to the comments of previous speakers, I would like to address the term "mud" that is used throughout the poem. Agreeing to the opinion that mud represents humans,this could also be a negative connotation towards mankind. From the Bible, it is stated that humans are from the ground, and Vonnegut may be applying this notion towards humans in this poem.","dateCreated":"1321236309","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"astobi","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/astobi","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46215128","body":"As I said before I think Kurt is being extremely sarcastic. It's the way he talks about God, and how he repeatedly talks about how god is so great. Another way that you can tell that the author is being sarcastic is how he uses mud as a metaphor for humans. Mud being dirty and low. I think his sarcasm leads to his point on how praying and being subservient to one 'omnipotent' being is very ignorant.","dateCreated":"1321236463","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mting2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mting2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46218352","body":"I agree with Tobi's comment of how the term "mud" refers to humans since Adam was actually created from the ground in the Book of Genesis. And I agree with Michael when he says that Mr. Vonnegut is sarcastic by the way he refers to humans as mud. By reading this poem again, I am more convinced of how cynical Kurt Vonnegut is towards humanity and religion. First, in the poem, God is portrayed as being very conceited. For example, "'See all I've made,' said God, "the hills, the sea, the sky, the stars." And how He allows the mud to sit up, just so the mud can praise him. Second, Mr. Vonnegut portrays humans as mud, which shows how insignificant and low we are. Third, Mr. Vonnegut portrays the relationship between God and humans being foolish. In the poem, mud basically just praises God and thanks Him for creating him. This refers to how many people, like fools, praise God and thank Him for the conditions of their lives. Even though, their lives can already be very dirty and insignificant, like mud.","dateCreated":"1321239501","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jecolmenares","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jecolmenares","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46221624","body":"I completely agree with Jorge when he talks about how many people praise God and thank him for the conditions of their lives. I think that not only is this a sarcastic poem but a satire. It is a satire because Vonnegut uses exaggeration and sarcasm to ridicule a point of view. I very much like this poem because I think that Vonnegut is saying things that many people in history fear to say because of the way society will judge them, and sarcasm is the perfect way to go about it.","dateCreated":"1321242882","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"JakeTaub","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JakeTaub","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":1}]},{"id":"45756660","dateCreated":"1320672148","smartDate":"Nov 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mrCohen","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mrCohen","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1344807827\/mrCohen-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/englishnotes.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/45756660"},"dateDigested":1532091961,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Original Sequence, Philip Booth","description":"What does Booth mean when he says that "Time was the apple Adam ate?"","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[],"more":0}]},{"id":"45756572","dateCreated":"1320672078","smartDate":"Nov 7, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mrCohen","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mrCohen","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1344807827\/mrCohen-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/englishnotes.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/45756572"},"dateDigested":1532091962,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"The Creation, James Weldon Johnsopn","description":"Do you think Johnson's characterization of God accurately portrays the one presented in the Book of Genesis?","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"45993074","body":"I completely agree with you Julian, the way God is portrayed by James Johnson is extremely different from the way he is described in the book of Genesis. For one the beginning of the poem doesn\u2019t give the reader the idea of god as an omnipotent figure. As Julian stated god starts off with the line \u201cAnd God stepped out on space, and He looked around and said, "I'm lonely \u2014I'll make me a world." In the book of Genesis god is omnipresent, thus he is everywhere at every time. If that were true how could he ever be lonely? Another major difference is the very human like tone and actions of the way god approaches making a world. In Johnson\u2019s version god is lonely, so to fix his loneliness he creates the world. The book of Genesis would have god create the work in an mighty action by stating \u201clet their be light, or let their be living beings.\u201d Not \u201cI\u2019ll make me a world.\u201d The difference in these sentences completely alters the way the reader views god.
\nAnother drastic difference, like Julian said is how god goes about physically creating the world. In the book of genesis god says let there be water, or let there be sea creatures, etc. On the contrary in Johnson\u2019s poem god goes into detail about making things, such as \u201cAnd God walked, and where he trod his footsteps hollowed the valleys out and bulged the mountains up.\u201d This gives god a more human like attribute which is opposite to the very powerful version of god saying let there be life, and life appeared.","dateCreated":"1320891852","smartDate":"Nov 9, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mting2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mting2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"45994642","body":"I also agree, and like what Michael was saying, God is depicted as more a powerful omnipotent creature in the book of genesis, because he does not physically do the actions, he just says something, and it is so. Much like what Julian was saying, God seems very human, and feels the emotions that a human would, such as loneliness, and if God was the all poweful being, as potrayed in the book of Genesis, then he would not have to go through all these motions, such as stepping and creating mountains, and rolling the light in his hands, he could just want something to happen, and it would happrn. God seems much more limited in this poem, than in the book of genesis","dateCreated":"1320893213","smartDate":"Nov 9, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"asTalla","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/asTalla","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46136966","body":"I agree with Michel in which the author uses grammar that gives the idea a God not being all powerful.Another diffidence in this version is that it implies that God did not created everything in which there is already a heaven.In this story when God smiles it means he is happy with himself in doing something","dateCreated":"1321064667","smartDate":"Nov 11, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"Qjdownes","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/Qjdownes","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46165542","body":"I disagree with Qj's post about God not being all powerful. I believe that in Johnson's poem, God is very omnipotent. In this version, God is shown making things, as opposed to the one in Genesis, where all God does is speak. An example of this is when God created the waters. Johnson says "So God stepped over to the edge of the world
\n And He spat out the seven seas...." This is one example of God showing his power. However, I do agree with Qj's next statement. In Johnson's poem, there is an implication that something existed before God started to create. In the beginning, it says "And God stepped out on space,
\n And He looked around and said,
\n "I'm lonely \u2014
\n I'll make me a world...." In Genesis, it starts with God creating the heavens and the earth. After reading Johnson's version, one might put forth the question "what was before heaven and earth."","dateCreated":"1321139006","smartDate":"Nov 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jphillips24","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jphillips24","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46191260","body":"I agree with Julian that God is depicted as an omnipotent figure in this poem. If you created man, the earth, the sun and the moon I believe you pretty much have all power... I also disagree with Talla that having God feel emotions and doing physical actions such as rolling his hands makes his power more limited. The bible is not magic and doing these things could possibly be a metaphor for the real ways in which God created earth. But by saying things and them being done without any physical power shows no sign of God being more or less powerful. I also believe that when God says "That's Good" Johnson is trying to produce a closer relationship with God by him saying this simple, human-like phrase. Also with lines such as "And He spat out the seven seas;" Johnson is trying to say he is a down to earth being.(pun) Overall I believe that although very different from the God in Genesis, the God presented in this poem does posses some of the same characteristics but moderated. The main objective of this poem is to show God as not one big scary man who everyone should bow down too, but somewhat of an equal to the rest of mankind. And as for Julians question "What was before heaven and earth" I believe that is irrelevant because if God the first religious figure in the bible, anything before him is nonexistent and irrelevant.","dateCreated":"1321209255","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"JakeTaub","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JakeTaub","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46193064","body":"I agree with Julian, Michael, Talla, and QJ, and I believe that James Weldon Johnson's portrayal of God in his poem and the one in certain aspects of the Book of Genesis do not agree in several points. However, it does depend on which story in the Book of Genesis, one is referring to. This is where I disagree with Michael and Julian. Because remember, the Bible is an anthology, which was written by different people from different times and places. And the Book of Genesis was not created by one man, but by many authors. Consequently, the portrayal of God in the Book of Genesis is not constant and it varies.
\nFor example, in the First Creation (the Seven Days of Creation), God, yes, is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. He is also impersonal, mysterious, and He creates things by His will and word. But in the Second Creation (where God creates Adam), He is humanized and more philosophical. And here, one sees God do several things like planting, breathing, taking, etc., which proves that here He is human or perhaps is taking on a human form. So James Weldon Johnson's portrayal of God could be (at least a little more) accurate to a portrayal of God in other stories in the Book of Genesis.
\n
\nHowever, in my opinion, James Weldon Johnson's view of God does not agree with the portrayal of God in the story of the Seven Days of Creation, which is the story that he narrates in his poem. In the poem, the author describes God of having human emotions such as loneliness and favor. For example, in the first verse he writes: "I'm lonely\/I'll make me a world." I agree with Michael in that God, in the Seven Days of Creation, cannot be lonely since He is omnipresent. And in the Bible, it does not say that God had a personal motive in creating the universe, for example to make him happy, but He just did it. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...and the spirit of God hovered over the surface" (Gen. 1). Here, one sees that the portrayal of God is impersonal and is without human form. Another point where both views disagree in is God's role in creation. Mr. Johnson believes that God created the universe through physical action, which he shows when he says, "Then God reached out and took the light in His hands\/And God rolled the light around in His hands\/Until He made the sun." While the writer of the Seven Days of Creation believes that God manifested the universe by His will and Word. This is shown where the author writes, "God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light" (Gen. 1.).
\n
\nThroughout the poem, Mr. Johnson is trying to show people the love God has for the things that He created. This is shown when he says, "And God said, 'That's good!'" Or when he says later, "This Great God\/Like a mammy bending over her baby\/Kneeled downing the dust\/Toiling over a lump of clay\/Till He shaped it in His own image." All of this shows that Mr. Johnson believed that God loved and continue to loves ALL of his creatures (which might support his views of equality between blacks and whites). While in the Seven Days of Creation, God is impersonal and does not express His like or dislike of humanity.","dateCreated":"1321211266","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jecolmenares","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jecolmenares","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46195592","body":"I would like to agree with Jorge, to a certain degree. i believe that James Weldon Johnson applies personification to this omnipotent,omnipresent being called "God". I infer that Johnson attempts to connect this being with humanized emotions and actions, such as when he states,
\n"And God stepped out on space,
\nAnd He looked around and said,
\n"I'm lonely -I'll make me a world.", and "Then God smiled..." These feelings of loneliness and the human action of smiling presents a depiction of God as a being similar to a human. This contrasts with the story in the book of Genesis, where God appears as an unfeeling being impossible to be defined.","dateCreated":"1321214578","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"astobi","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/astobi","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46199796","body":"I disagree with what QJ said earlier about god not being all powerful. If anything can create an entire world then the person definitely controls a great amount of power. The difference between Gods power in the genesis and Gods power in Johnson's is not the extent of there power, just in how they use their power. This relates to another difference in the two stories. In one god is very mysterious and uses his power by making statements. Whereas in the other God is much more defined as a character. What I mean is that he doesn't just say things he actually does them physically, and Johnson also gives God emotion.","dateCreated":"1321219562","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"mting2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/mting2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46200464","body":"But Tobi, you have to admit that in certain places in the Book of Genesis, God is humanized and personified. For example, in the Book of Genesis 3.1-24, "The man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God walking about in the garden." Does not this prove that here, God is portrayed by having physical, human qualities? And later in the story of Noah, God is shown having the human emotion of anger and rage, and He destroys almost all of humanity because of it. Does not this prove that God has real human emotions, such as anger? My point is: there are places in the Book of Genesis where God is portrayed of being more human and less as an "unfeeling being impossible to be defined."
\n
\nAnd I would like to push Michael's statement further. A huge difference between the God in the Seven Days of Creation and the God in Mr. Johnson's poem is again the way God creates the universe. According to the author of the Seven Days of Creation, God manifested the universe through His will and word. But according to Mr. Johnson, He created the universe through physical action. He shows this when he says, "And He spat out the seven seas," or "And God walked, and where He trod\/His footsteps hollowed the valleys out\/And bulged the mountains up."","dateCreated":"1321220306","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"jecolmenares","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/jecolmenares","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46214504","body":"I have come to agree with Jorge's statement about God in the Book of Genesis presenting human-like qualities. Also, I would like to add that reflecting on the previous notion that the Bible is an anthology, written with several authors, one cannot accurately determine how the being of God is truly defined. One author may present God as an omnipotent, omnipresent being, while another author,in another story, may depict the being of God as one that has human-like qualities.","dateCreated":"1321235872","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"astobi","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/astobi","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46221952","body":"I completely agree with Tobi. I believe that understanding the Bible is an anthology is key to understand what God truly is. Going back to the original question, "Do you think Johnson's characterization of God accurately portrays the one presented in the Book of Genesis?" I think that there is no accurate portrayal of God in the Book of Genesis, I believe that different people have different understandings of God, none which are correct or incorrect. I believe that is what makes God, God.","dateCreated":"1321243357","smartDate":"Nov 13, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"JakeTaub","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JakeTaub","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"46235836","body":"I have read the Poem over and i agree with Jorge in which God has human like qualities. In my view this poem just dose not create an image of an all powerful and all knowing God that we know from the bible.","dateCreated":"1321276223","smartDate":"Nov 14, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"Qjdownes","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/Qjdownes","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":2}]}],"more":false},"comments":[]},"http":{"code":200,"status":"OK"},"redirectUrl":null,"javascript":null,"notices":{"warning":[],"error":[],"info":[],"success":[]}}